Weaken cleric poll

[Sorien]

Weaken clerics:
Reduce overall HP by 10%
Reduce self heals by 10%
Reduce Prayer effectiveness by 10%
Reduce wounding damage by 10%

Reducing HP isn't easy to do since its hard-coded into the client... however the other ones are easily changed.

I don't think self heals are the issue. Prayer and Wounding damage may be all that's needed.

If you guys agree, we can make the following changes:

Prayer I unchanged at 10%.
Prayer II damage reduction changed from 17% to 15%.
Prayer III damage reduction changed from 25% to 22%.
Prayer IV damage reduction changed from 32% to 28%.
Prayer IV damage reduction changed from 40% to 35%.

Wounding I changed from 2d4+0 x1 (2-8 x1) to 1d5+1 x1 (2-6 x1).
Wounding II changed from 2d4+0 x2 (2-8 x2, 4-16 Total) to 1d5+1 x2 (2-6 x2, 4-12 Total).
Wounding III changed from 3d7+3 x1 (6-24 x1) to 3d6+2 x1 (5-20 x1).
Wounding IV changed from 2d6+7 x2 (9-19 x2, 18-38 Total) to 6d3+2 x2 (8-20 x2, 16-40 Total).
Wounding Triad changed from 3d6+7 x3 (10-25 x3, 30-75 Total) to 7d3+2 x3 (9-23 x3, 27-69 Total).
Death Knell changed from 4d14+20 x1 (24-76 x1) to 6d8+20 x1 (26-68 x1).
Death Knell effect will reduce healing taken by 20%. (Optional)

[Law]

I honestly don't think it makes sense to nerf their whole kit just because Prayer is bullshit. Just remove it and viola, game is a lot more fun for everyone else other than the Cleric.

BUT- since that's probably not happening, let me share my insight about Clerics since I've been playing one.

Wounding is fine as it is. It's way more inefficient than any other damage spell. You can nerf it if you like, but it's already really inefficient compared to other class' damage spells. If you nerf it more they will be pointless to play in FFA, which is still a pretty common game mode.

What's REALLY a big deal I think is Heal Other sub level 20. So HO 1, 3 and 5. The gameplay shifts as you level up, as you already know. Low levels have longer fights, where high level fights are very short because burst damage is so high. I honestly think you buffed it too much, and it should be closer to MSM strength. Maybe add a min_fatigue to it or something and keep the heal strength. Either way, these need a sizeable nerf.

The reason for this is: In small, low level games (under 10 players), nobody can kill anybody because Clerics can outheal the damage. This ends up in a game where nothing happens and it feels like pumping. The Clerics themselves can't die (Prayer + Healing + Highest base HP) and none of their team can die (Heal Other outheals all damage).

One last thing:

Death Knell effect will reduce healing taken by 20%. (Optional)

I mentioned it when Healy brought it up and I'll mention it again. This option has to be all or nothing. 20% reduction to Full Heal is still Full Heal. I know this is aimed at making Clerics more killable, might as well just do it right and remove Prayer already.

[Law]

Also I wanted to add:

Healing 1 and 3 should be removed IMO, with the first self-heal spell being available at level 10 (Healing V). Both Healing 1 and 3 heal for more than any damage spell of their level can deal, with Healing 1 healing almost twice the average damage of a level 1 spell. The remarkable efficiency of the self heal combined with the lack of burst from fighters makes Clerics' self heal really OP in the early levels.

[Kuraokami]

Give it a bit, Law. Watch the objective results. Takes less percentages than people tend to think.

[Law]

Give it a bit, Law. Watch the objective results. Takes less percentages than people tend to think.

I don't "think" it's not enough, I know it's not enough. I've done the math. I also am playing a 30 Cleric at the moment and haven't cast Prayer once, and it's pretty sweet. I find that I can battle heal just fine and make plays just fine.

I want to see a Magestorm where all classes have equal game impact, where it's the player that determines how much impact they have and not the class they picked. I'd like to see a game where one guy can defend his shrine from a Cleric and doesn't need his entire team to relocate to help. I'd like to see a game where everyone shrines roughly the same, so it isn't all on one player's shoulders to win the game for his team. I'd like to see a game where a good Arc, or a good Mage, can make a game winning play. However, as it stands, that role is limited to Clerics.

I want to see it change, and the first step is making Clerics equal to everyone else. Remove Prayer.

[Limitless]

wait are you no prayer?? cause that guys sucks ALL the dicks ..

[Law]

wait are you no prayer?? cause that guys sucks ALL the dicks ..

Hey, let's play a game. I'm thinking of a word. Synonyms: Garbage, trash, horrible.

Did you get it? The word was Limitless.

Real talk tho did you know I have a positive win/loss ratio on no_prayer? I think that strengthens my argument ten fold. If I can get a POSITIVE win/loss ratio WITHOUT Prayer when every other Cleric still uses it, you noobs will do just fine if nobody had Prayer.

[Cigs]

easiest 30 cl to kill! he tries to bh but dies to quickly, unless you have a great fighter that helps you , your cl will die super easy . To each there own though.

[Law]

unless you have a great fighter that helps you

Yep, that's the point. Clerics are supports, not the centralized figure in the game. Their job is helping the Fighters, and as a UNIT, they are stronger than if they were separate. They're not a goddamn mothership that the fighters need to cling to.

I don't "try" to BH btw I just BH, and I do a good fucking job at it. I love how you tell me things like "you have to look for opportunities to BH" and then I have to rez you (on your Cleric) from wherever the fuck you died and surprise I'm with the team BHing them, but where the fuck were you?

Also, I don't die as much as you're trying to make it out to be, but I do die. Most games I have under 10 deaths, and I frequently pull risky offensive maneuvers with my team that even a P5 Cleric would die from.

Also don't act like I dont make plays. I remember specifically beating you. Even though my two Arcs that came with me couldn't kill a 30 mage even with FH backup, I won a game for my team versus Sorien (the greatest Cleric in the game, by his words) no less.

You don't get positive win/loss ratios on accident.

[Ayo]

You wuznt w me shootin in the gymmm

[Sorien]

I won a game for my team versus Sorien (the greatest Cleric in the game, by his words) no less.
You don't get positive win/loss ratios on accident.

Line 361: [4/9/2017 1:45:54 AM] [Server] Sorien: Considering Im one of the best healers in every single game I play, yes.
...
Line 375: [4/9/2017 1:47:45 AM] [Server] Sorien: and I also have 49 wins and 11 losses while you have 42 wins and 38 losses
Line 376: [4/9/2017 1:47:50 AM] [Server] Sorien: Id have to say Im better than you at Cleric.

[4/9/2017 1:46:26 AM] [Arena 1] (1090[521])Julia: you aren't very good at Cleric man
[4/9/2017 1:46:30 AM] [Arena 1] (1090[521])Julia: relatively speaking
[4/9/2017 1:46:51 AM] [Arena 1] (1090[521])Julia: not trying to be rude or anything

Here's some perspective for your "positive" ratio, a list of people I play with/against often:

Ryan (Magician)
43 Wins, 7 Losses (6.14 Win Ratio)

Rain (Arcanist)
84 Wins, 22 Losses (3.82 Win Ratio)

ayo (Arcanist)
59 Wins, 15 Losses (3.93 Win Ratio)

no_prayer (Cleric)
42 Wins, 38 Losses (1.10 Win Ratio)

Bonk (Cleric)
51 Wins, 12 Losses (4.25 Win Ratio)

Death (Cleric)
56 Wins, 19 Losses (2.95 Win Ratio)

hsidj (Cleric)
74 Wins, 23 Losses (3.22 Win Ratio)

Jer$ey (Cleric)
27 Wins, 9 Losses (3.00 Win Ratio)

As you can see the trend is a ratio around 3-4 with Ryan being the exception. Just because you have a positive win/loss ratio doesn't make you on-par with other players/classes.

I can also list kills, deaths, healing done, damage taken, etc. if you want to try and make excuses for the above results.

If you're such a great Cleric and think all Clerics should play how you do, are you insinuating that it's acceptable for Clerics to have 1/3rd to 1/4th the win ratio as other classes?

You act like almost every idea, and action you take is infallible... it's infuriating. You whine, complain, and ragequit quite often.. like a child.

I'm honestly sick of it.

[Kuraokami]

Isn't his argument that if all the clerics had no prayer, that such would disregard the ratios you posted? If all clerics had no prayer, it wouldn't change that all teams would have clerics, so the ratios would still be balanced between classes.

[Sorien]

Isn't his argument that if all the clerics had no prayer, that such would disregard the ratios you posted? If all clerics had no prayer, it wouldn't change that all teams would have clerics, so the ratios would still be balanced between classes.

It would not be balanced, at all. With the only adjustment being complete Prayer removal, Cleric performance and playability would drop dramatically... far below all other classes.

If it would please everyone, I'll disable Prayer for a week or two.. we can watch every Cleric stop playing their character and/or quit because of how ridiculous it is.

Clerics have to focus on much more than DPS classes, and are the focus of attack in a fight because of their healing. DPS classes have much less reliance on player-map positioning, they don't have to watch player health, and they don't have to split their focus in multiple areas/fights to support everyone. The whole reason Prayer exists is to reduce the impact of that increased focus requirement and give a Cleric time to react to a situation.

Law just made his Cleric the way it is to try and prove a point that "it can be done". Sure, it can be done.. but is it balanced and ideal? Hell no.

[Kuraokami]

I'm just pointing out the apples and oranges lol

You could just play without prayer for a couple weeks and log the results as an acceptable counter to his argument

Really, inter-class balance is best achieved the same as inter-class balance: observation of population percentages. Clerics are overpowered compared to other classes not because of X or Y, but simply by virtue that <25% of the classes in a match are clerics and the game can't sustain 25%. The same holds true for intra-class on clerics and other classes; if X build isn't played as much as Y build, you skew X up, skew Y down, or skew X up and Y down, depending upon that classes own inter-class balancing. Populations are the root of all objectivity, otherwise, it'd just be called subjectivity lol.

[Sorien]

I'm just pointing out the apples and oranges lol

You could just play without prayer for a couple weeks and log the results as an acceptable counter to his argument

Really, inter-class balance is best achieved the same as inter-class balance: observation of population percentages. Clerics are overpowered compared to other classes not because of X or Y, but simply by virtue that <25% of the classes in a match are clerics and the game can't sustain 25%. The same holds true for intra-class on clerics and other classes; if X build isn't played as much as Y build, you skew X up, skew Y down, or skew X up and Y down, depending upon that classes own inter-class balancing. Populations are the root of all objectivity, otherwise, it'd just be called subjectivity lol.

I would never play without Prayer because not only would it put me at a severe disadvantage, but it also wouldn't be fun dying near instantly most of the time.