Weaken cleric poll

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Weaken clerics

Poll ended at 4:44 pm, Tue Feb 07, 2017

Yes
8
80%
No
2
20%
 
Total votes: 10

Kuraokami
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Kuraokami » 3:04 am, Tue Apr 11, 2017

I like balls.

Law
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Law » 4:25 am, Tue Apr 11, 2017

You know I feel like everyone is against me. Everyone just tells me I'm a bad Cleric or my ideas are stupid and you don't even understand how hard I play that fucking Cleric. Check the minimap every 2 - 3 seconds, always staying by my team, always conscious of my position and my surroundings. Everybody who's half decent knows I have no prayer and I am focused a lot.
Sorien wrote:If it would please everyone, I'll disable Prayer for a week or two.. we can watch every Cleric stop playing their character and/or quit because of how ridiculous it is.
Yes, please do it. Don't just remove it though, replace it with something. Did you like my symbol idea? I tried to make it as easy to program as possible. Put something cool and powerful in its place.

Also, could we reduce their shrining so they're only slightly better than Fighters? The idea is to make Fighters the core of the team, and Clerics are auxiliary. I want to make it so an Arc can make the game winning shrine play, or a Ment. Having all this pressure on just the Cleric justifies all those "Clerics can't die" arguments because they have to survive due to how the game is structured. But, if a Fighter could make equal impact to the win/loss condition, Clerics wouldn't need to be so much more tanky than other classes.

In fact, this would make Clerics better. When it's time to end the game, I have to spend a lot more time shrining instead of BHing my team. If Fighters had equal pull in the shrining department, Offense could be composed of an Arc and a Ment, while the Cleric stays with the bulk of the team.
Kuraokami wrote:You could just play without prayer for a couple weeks and log the results as an acceptable counter to his argument
Thank you Kura. Thank you so much. Everyone is flaming me and I didn't expect it to be Kura who gives me a chance. Jesus christ I was willing to walk the walk and people still flame me.
Last edited by Law on 4:30 am, Tue Apr 11, 2017, edited 1 time in total.

Kuraokami
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Kuraokami » 4:30 am, Tue Apr 11, 2017

Do what? Lol. I'm like one of the nicest people to have played this game lol. Being an antagonist to people who need to be antagonized isn't the same thing as being mean lol

Kuraokami
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Kuraokami » 4:45 am, Tue Apr 11, 2017

Also, keep in mind that "walk the walk" is opposite of "talk the talk." When you walk the walk, but then talk the talk about walking the walk, you've immediately undone all the walking.

IMMAD
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby IMMAD » 3:52 pm, Tue Apr 11, 2017

Wow this thread is impressive.

Why don't you do what Dain originally said? Nerf them a bit. See how it works out. All I know is DK and Triad plow through my 29 mage like butter currently. Not much of a comparison since its the weakest HP class, but when my mage's offense can't keep up with a (supposed to be) protection type class's offense, there is some imbalance, in my humble opinion.

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Sorien
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Sorien » 5:25 pm, Tue Apr 11, 2017

IMMAD wrote:Wow this thread is impressive.

Why don't you do what Dain originally said? Nerf them a bit. See how it works out. All I know is DK and Triad plow through my 29 mage like butter currently. Not much of a comparison since its the weakest HP class, but when my mage's offense can't keep up with a (supposed to be) protection type class's offense, there is some imbalance, in my humble opinion.
Sorien wrote:
Dain wrote:Weaken clerics:
Reduce overall HP by 10%
Reduce self heals by 10%
Reduce Prayer effectiveness by 10%
Reduce wounding damage by 10%
Reducing HP isn't easy to do since its hard-coded into the client... however the other ones are easily changed.

I don't think self heals are the issue. Prayer and Wounding damage may be all that's needed.

If you guys agree, we can make the following changes:

Prayer I unchanged at 10%.
Prayer II damage reduction changed from 17% to 15%.
Prayer III damage reduction changed from 25% to 22%.
Prayer IV damage reduction changed from 32% to 28%.
Prayer IV damage reduction changed from 40% to 35%.

Wounding I changed from 2d4+0 x1 (2-8 x1) to 1d5+1 x1 (2-6 x1).
Wounding II changed from 2d4+0 x2 (2-8 x2, 4-16 Total) to 1d5+1 x2 (2-6 x2, 4-12 Total).
Wounding III changed from 3d7+3 x1 (6-24 x1) to 3d6+2 x1 (5-20 x1).
Wounding IV changed from 2d6+7 x2 (9-19 x2, 18-38 Total) to 6d3+2 x2 (8-20 x2, 16-40 Total).
Wounding Triad changed from 3d6+7 x3 (10-25 x3, 30-75 Total) to 7d3+2 x3 (9-23 x3, 27-69 Total).
Death Knell changed from 4d14+20 x1 (24-76 x1) to 6d8+20 x1 (26-68 x1).
Death Knell effect will reduce healing taken by 20%. (Optional)
What do you think about what I proposed? I think it's a proper compromise since we can't change some of the things Dain listed.

Kuraokami
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Kuraokami » 5:28 pm, Tue Apr 11, 2017

Just do it. If it's too much or not enough, you can tweak it back. The change %'s are low, so not like it's going to break the he'll out of the game.

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Slick
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Slick » 6:29 pm, Tue Apr 11, 2017

Sorien wrote:If it would please everyone, I'll disable Prayer for a week or two.. we can watch every Cleric stop playing their character and/or quit because of how ridiculous it is.
so basically if i cry, moan and bitch about clerics with over 60 posts on the topic... you'll give in to peer pressure? you know it's a bad idea - yet you are willing to entertain the troll?

this is only going to please *ONE* person - and the occasional clueless player that has zero time spent in this game.
Law wrote:You know I feel like everyone is against me. Everyone just tells me I'm a bad Cleric or my ideas are stupid and you don't even understand how hard I play that fucking Cleric. Check the minimap every 2 - 3 seconds, always staying by my team, always conscious of my position and my surroundings. Everybody who's half decent knows I have no prayer and I am focused a lot.
1. If you grasped the concept of the game it would be a different story. This isnt Counter-Strike or Quake.
2. You are not a bad cleric. You are an "ok" cleric with bad spell choices - which in turn makes you an awful cleric.
3. Your ideas about match modes and such were very interesting. Your ideas about clerics greatly reinforce #1.
4. How you play cleric or how you play vs a cleric doesnt justify any of your proposed changes.

Law
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Law » 7:48 pm, Tue Apr 11, 2017

Slick wrote:this is only going to please *ONE* person - and the occasional clueless player that has zero time spent in this game.
It's gonna please more than one person for sure, because I'm not the first person to get mad about how OP Clerics are. It's going to please a lot of Fighter players who are tired of being significantly more skilled than Clerics who just walk into their shrine and beat them because they're impossible to stop. It's gonna make a lot of Fighter players happy that they, too, can win the game for their team. They, too, can sneak into a shrine and shrine it. They, too, can fight off people trying to bring it back up. It's gonna be awesome.

No longer will Arcs offense be limited to being a "Manawall Bitch" to protect the Cleric while shrining. No longer will Mages be limited to holding HPool, they can actually take the game, too! No longer will games be determined by who has more Clerics, or better Clerics, but better PLAYERS!

Just give my vision for this game a chance. I promise I'm not trying to gimp anything, I'm trying to make a game where all classes can impact their team equally. I'm trying to make Clerics equal.

Clerics are extremely OP, so a minor nerf like what Dain suggested is not enough. Go ahead and find out for yourselves.
IMMAD wrote:All I know is DK and Triad plow through my 29 mage like butter currently. Not much of a comparison since its the weakest HP class, but when my mage's offense can't keep up with a (supposed to be) protection type class's offense, there is some imbalance, in my humble opinion.
May I ask you something? What do you mean by "can't keep up with (Cleric's) offense"? Do you mean they kill you before you can kill them?

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Sorien
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Sorien » 8:23 pm, Tue Apr 11, 2017

Slick wrote:
Sorien wrote:If it would please everyone, I'll disable Prayer for a week or two.. we can watch every Cleric stop playing their character and/or quit because of how ridiculous it is.
so basically if i cry, moan and bitch about clerics with over 60 posts on the topic... you'll give in to peer pressure? you know it's a bad idea - yet you are willing to entertain the troll?

this is only going to please *ONE* person - and the occasional clueless player that has zero time spent in this game.
I was patronizing him, not being serious. ;x

Law
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Law » 8:26 pm, Tue Apr 11, 2017

Sorien wrote:I was patronizing him, not being serious. ;x
That really hurt my feelings dude.

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Sorien
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Sorien » 8:44 pm, Tue Apr 11, 2017

Law wrote:
Sorien wrote:I was patronizing him, not being serious. ;x
That really hurt my feelings dude.
Look, I don't hate you, but I do hate the way you act in a lot of situations. You're often hot-headed and self-righteous, and many of your opinions/comments come off as whining or complaining.

I lived with a hot-tempered, self-righteous narcissist for 19 years which ingrained in me a great disdain for people who have similar traits. Now I'm not saying you're as bad as they were, but there are similarities and it drives me crazy.

You are a decent player on Magestorm but you greatly overestimate how much you know about Clerics and overshoot some suggestions by a large margin, then when people disagree you get combative. When balancing things you need start off slow and work your way to a solution, not make large changes all at once.

I'm sorry for getting so mad and what-not but you also need to learn when enough is enough and tone everything down.

Kuraokami
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Kuraokami » 8:45 pm, Tue Apr 11, 2017

It's not like the game is going to implode if lowering prayer values by ~15 percent doesn't balance out the class distributions lol

Law
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Law » 12:30 am, Wed Apr 12, 2017

And I hate the way you act, Sorien.

If anybody has a problem with anything you belittle them by calling it "whining", you're getting direct feedback from someone's experience and you just invalidate it instead of investigate further. For example, three or four people tell you UV is garbage, but despite never playing an Arc and trying it yourself, we're wrong.

You always play the most bullshit classes, Cleric and Ment, with the occasional Mage. You toy with your community with exp boosts, dangling it in front of us like a carrot, like we're supposed to jump on it like dogs, when you just !level yourself to whatever level you please. You don't make any effort to experience the game from all angles. When your team is about to lose, I've heard sometimes you !kill command the entire enemy team, and blame it on stack or something. Take the loss like a man.

In short, I think you're a coward. You play to every advantage you can get, and never truly challenge yourself. I am the opposite. I try to fight as fair as possible. When I fight someone 15 levels below me, I fight fair and even let them win to help them catch up. I'll shoot them with a level 1 spell or something. The only way I could play a Cleric was if I didn't use prayer, how the fuck can you guys play Clerics, seriously? It's so obviously overpowered it's not even rewarding.

This is why I'd be a good balancer, I want it to be fair for all sides. When people rage, I listen. You think I suggested a VS2 nerf because it makes ME mad? I play Arcs. I want to nerf it because I remember how much it pissed Healy off.

Clerics are OP, and the reason is they're too tanky. I have found that they don't even need Prayer to be good, and have tested it personally. If you can think of a better way to make them even, be my guest, but you don't really seem to care. This is how you want it.

Kuraokami
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Kuraokami » 1:08 am, Wed Apr 12, 2017

Clerics are underpopulated, because they're overpowered. Making them underpowered, on the other hand, would equally make them underpopulated. Have to aim for the middle.


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