Weaken cleric poll

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Weaken clerics

Poll ended at 4:44 pm, Tue Feb 07, 2017

Yes
8
80%
No
2
20%
 
Total votes: 10

Law
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Law » 1:22 am, Wed Apr 12, 2017

Kuraokami wrote:Clerics are underpopulated, because they're overpowered. Making them underpowered, on the other hand, would equally make them underpopulated. Have to aim for the middle.
I don't think my suggestions would make Clerics underpowered. Removing Prayer, replacing it with various Symbols that strengthen teamplay, and evening out shrining strength so all classes have equal impact would move Magestorm a whole lot closer to balance than what it is today.

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Sorien
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Sorien » 2:58 am, Wed Apr 12, 2017

Law wrote:And I hate the way you act, Sorien.

If anybody has a problem with anything you belittle them by calling it "whining", you're getting direct feedback from someone's experience and you just invalidate it instead of investigate further. For example, three or four people tell you UV is garbage, but despite never playing an Arc and trying it yourself, we're wrong.

You always play the most bullshit classes, Cleric and Ment, with the occasional Mage. You toy with your community with exp boosts, dangling it in front of us like a carrot, like we're supposed to jump on it like dogs, when you just !level yourself to whatever level you please. You don't make any effort to experience the game from all angles. When your team is about to lose, I've heard sometimes you !kill command the entire enemy team, and blame it on stack or something. Take the loss like a man.

In short, I think you're a coward. You play to every advantage you can get, and never truly challenge yourself. I am the opposite. I try to fight as fair as possible. When I fight someone 15 levels below me, I fight fair and even let them win to help them catch up. I'll shoot them with a level 1 spell or something. The only way I could play a Cleric was if I didn't use prayer, how the fuck can you guys play Clerics, seriously? It's so obviously overpowered it's not even rewarding.

This is why I'd be a good balancer, I want it to be fair for all sides. When people rage, I listen. You think I suggested a VS2 nerf because it makes ME mad? I play Arcs. I want to nerf it because I remember how much it pissed Healy off.

Clerics are OP, and the reason is they're too tanky. I have found that they don't even need Prayer to be good, and have tested it personally. If you can think of a better way to make them even, be my guest, but you don't really seem to care. This is how you want it.
I play Mage way more than ANY other Class, Cleric included. I rarely even play a Ment.

As for the level thing, I rarely have the time to actually play many games anymore.. I spend 8-20 hours a day, 7 days a week working which also includes Magestorm, you know... the server I created? Maybe you should try doing what I have done/am doing: have 2 large active programming projects, manage a website, technical support, billing, general QA, user management of over 400 active members, and every other damn thing I do while simultaneously trying to enjoy what you create.

If you think I use !kill on a team because I'm losing you're delusional, I've only used !kill one time *ever* to kill a team during a real match.. which was about a week ago when a team had double the levels of the other team and was trying to shrine the game out. If you would actually read the rules you would see that stacking is one of them. If you believe that level of stacking to be fair, then there's another reason to not feel bad about your ideas.

Advantage? What advantage? I always go to the underdog team, and reduce my level if I believe it would be more fair... among other things. Talking about advantages.. do you think it's been advantageous for me to keep the Magestorm server up? No.. it hasn't, I've been paying for the server out of my own pocket for a long time now and haven't asked for any help. The fact that you would even say something like that means you have no idea what you're talking about.
When people rage, I listen.
You've logged/ragequit so many times It wouldn't be possible to recall them all.

It's not about me wanting to keep them unbalanced, it's about making small changes then continuing from there.. not blasting the class with an ion cannon.

Law
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Law » 3:35 am, Wed Apr 12, 2017

You are right, I am sorry. This server does not belong to me at all. You can do with it whatever you want. I stepped way out of my bounds.

Kuraokami
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Kuraokami » 4:03 am, Wed Apr 12, 2017

Law wrote:
Kuraokami wrote:Clerics are underpopulated, because they're overpowered. Making them underpowered, on the other hand, would equally make them underpopulated. Have to aim for the middle.
I don't think my suggestions would make Clerics underpowered. Removing Prayer, replacing it with various Symbols that strengthen teamplay, and evening out shrining strength so all classes have equal impact would move Magestorm a whole lot closer to balance than what it is today.
But then you're not talking about balance; you're talking about content addition.

IMMAD
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby IMMAD » 7:23 am, Wed Apr 12, 2017

Sorien wrote:
IMMAD wrote:Wow this thread is impressive.

Why don't you do what Dain originally said? Nerf them a bit. See how it works out. All I know is DK and Triad plow through my 29 mage like butter currently. Not much of a comparison since its the weakest HP class, but when my mage's offense can't keep up with a (supposed to be) protection type class's offense, there is some imbalance, in my humble opinion.
Sorien wrote:
Dain wrote:Weaken clerics:
Reduce overall HP by 10%
Reduce self heals by 10%
Reduce Prayer effectiveness by 10%
Reduce wounding damage by 10%
Reducing HP isn't easy to do since its hard-coded into the client... however the other ones are easily changed.

I don't think self heals are the issue. Prayer and Wounding damage may be all that's needed.

If you guys agree, we can make the following changes:

Prayer I unchanged at 10%.
Prayer II damage reduction changed from 17% to 15%.
Prayer III damage reduction changed from 25% to 22%.
Prayer IV damage reduction changed from 32% to 28%.
Prayer IV damage reduction changed from 40% to 35%.

Wounding I changed from 2d4+0 x1 (2-8 x1) to 1d5+1 x1 (2-6 x1).
Wounding II changed from 2d4+0 x2 (2-8 x2, 4-16 Total) to 1d5+1 x2 (2-6 x2, 4-12 Total).
Wounding III changed from 3d7+3 x1 (6-24 x1) to 3d6+2 x1 (5-20 x1).
Wounding IV changed from 2d6+7 x2 (9-19 x2, 18-38 Total) to 6d3+2 x2 (8-20 x2, 16-40 Total).
Wounding Triad changed from 3d6+7 x3 (10-25 x3, 30-75 Total) to 7d3+2 x3 (9-23 x3, 27-69 Total).
Death Knell changed from 4d14+20 x1 (24-76 x1) to 6d8+20 x1 (26-68 x1).
Death Knell effect will reduce healing taken by 20%. (Optional)
What do you think about what I proposed? I think it's a proper compromise since we can't change some of the things Dain listed.

It doesn't hurt to try it that's for sure. I've just always attributed support to the Cleric class. Walls, heals, hinders, etc. Back in the day, a DK cleric was pretty rare and I can remember....Beer being a sniper with it and it seemed like it took some skill to be good with it. Maybe reduce the hit radius for DK as well if possible?

Population of the game should always be considered. It's not like we have 4-5 full match games going at a time like in the past. This simple fact makes it harder for Sorien to balance the game that has historically been a bit unbalanced at all times.

You have a tough job Sor. I would hope everyone that plays this game appreciates the fact you do not have to do anything, much less keep this thing going. Thanks bud!

IMMAD
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby IMMAD » 7:31 am, Wed Apr 12, 2017

Law wrote:
Slick wrote:this is only going to please *ONE* person - and the occasional clueless player that has zero time spent in this game.
It's gonna please more than one person for sure, because I'm not the first person to get mad about how OP Clerics are. It's going to please a lot of Fighter players who are tired of being significantly more skilled than Clerics who just walk into their shrine and beat them because they're impossible to stop. It's gonna make a lot of Fighter players happy that they, too, can win the game for their team. They, too, can sneak into a shrine and shrine it. They, too, can fight off people trying to bring it back up. It's gonna be awesome.

No longer will Arcs offense be limited to being a "Manawall Bitch" to protect the Cleric while shrining. No longer will Mages be limited to holding HPool, they can actually take the game, too! No longer will games be determined by who has more Clerics, or better Clerics, but better PLAYERS!

Just give my vision for this game a chance. I promise I'm not trying to gimp anything, I'm trying to make a game where all classes can impact their team equally. I'm trying to make Clerics equal.

Clerics are extremely OP, so a minor nerf like what Dain suggested is not enough. Go ahead and find out for yourselves.
IMMAD wrote:All I know is DK and Triad plow through my 29 mage like butter currently. Not much of a comparison since its the weakest HP class, but when my mage's offense can't keep up with a (supposed to be) protection type class's offense, there is some imbalance, in my humble opinion.
May I ask you something? What do you mean by "can't keep up with (Cleric's) offense"? Do you mean they kill you before you can kill them?
Yes they can easily kill me before I kill them. Generally 4-5 DK or Triad wipe me out. Mind you, this is Ryan or Rain playing the cleric, so they are pretty damn good players, but if I can occasionally hold my own with a cleric on damage output, they run away, heal once or twice and finish the job on me. Clerics having walls, self heals, damage reduction, hinders and offensive spells that are basically as strong as any other class.....well you see the formula here.

For instance, FFAs.....Clerics are gods if played correctly.

Law
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Law » 2:42 pm, Wed Apr 12, 2017

IMMAD wrote: Yes they can easily kill me before I kill them. Generally 4-5 DK or Triad wipe me out. Mind you, this is Ryan or Rain playing the cleric, so they are pretty damn good players, but if I can occasionally hold my own with a cleric on damage output, they run away, heal once or twice and finish the job on me. Clerics having walls, self heals, damage reduction, hinders and offensive spells that are basically as strong as any other class.....well you see the formula here.

For instance, FFAs.....Clerics are gods if played correctly.
Yep, this is where I'm coming from. If a Cleric knows how to play, he's literally invincible 1v1. The only way you'll kill them is if they make a mistake.

Kuraokami
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Kuraokami » 3:59 pm, Wed Apr 12, 2017

IMMAD,

All projectile spells, including DK, are comparatively stronger than what they were on pre-MSR servers. On previous servers, latency and refresh rate had the effect of more misses, which in turn lowered overall effectiveness of projectiles. This is also why bolts and mind spells are not prevalent on this server and why I previously boosted them, because the latency and refresh rates have caused assisted aim spells end effectiveness to be much lower than projectile spells.

The prevalence of DO compared to historically is also due to the population. In matches with no shortages of teammates, it isn't practical to spend ~100 mana to kill one enemy instead of spending ~100 mana to FH four teammates. However, in small population games, or depending upon the ego of the DK cleric, the cleric often has enough available mana to DK more frequently, simply by virtue of there being less to spend mana on. In FFA games, the use of FH is negated, and so the population-centric detriments of DK are also negated.

Pre-reset, there were the changes to Earth, inclusion of Darkstorm, and future inclusion of Psionics Law, all of which offered a hard counter to DK clerics. I am unsure if Earth is still boosted to allow Mages a hard counter spec.

Kuraokami
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Kuraokami » 6:13 pm, Wed Apr 12, 2017

After verifying some values/mechanisms with Sorien, I am confused; are y'all debating clerics being imbalanced, or debating your specs?

If a battle cleric is fighting a non-earth magician, the battle cleric should win. If a battle cleric is fighting a non-void arcanist, the battle cleric should win. This is part of the validity of different specs. Different specs have different strengths/weaknesses, and are to be utilized and recognized as such.

IMMAD
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby IMMAD » 8:14 pm, Wed Apr 12, 2017

Kuraokami wrote:After verifying some values/mechanisms with Sorien, I am confused; are y'all debating clerics being imbalanced, or debating your specs?

If a battle cleric is fighting a non-earth magician, the battle cleric should win. If a battle cleric is fighting a non-void arcanist, the battle cleric should win. This is part of the validity of different specs. Different specs have different strengths/weaknesses, and are to be utilized and recognized as such.
Pointless to debate this Kura. As you stated earlier, it's more a population problem than a build problem. I see your point, but with your explanation it makes going anything but Earth in the current state of the game pointless, which makes no sense. Mages are nothing but offense with a few walls with an ice build. Ments have some defense by escaping due to movements. Arcs are the only other class that has capabilities to hinder and the ability to drain mana. Clerics should mainly be a support class, because that is their design. Giving them relatively equal offense of a mage makes no sense. All the other classes should be fairly close to being on par offensively.

It's simple really. Mages should hurt the most no matter what their build is. Ments should be next and probably are with the additional spells they have received and their movement abilities. I rarely see them played though. Arcs, due to their defensive capabilities, should be 3rd. They should rely on their signs and void to compete with a mage or ment. Clerics should be the least offensive class. Currently, a well played one rolls face all day. I'm not saying they shouldn't be tanks. I'm saying they should not be so effective offensively. What can a mage do, save for throw up a cold wall since solid walls seems to be vetoed, when a cleric paras and begins to DK/Triad you? A mage can't attempt to drain mana or jump/fly away. You literally just sit there and die. How is that balanced?

Perhaps some more defensive spells should be added to their list if all classes are to be created equally or maybe I will just ask for a respec lol.

That being said....I can't wait to get DK on my cleric with these current values :twisted: :D

Kuraokami
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Kuraokami » 8:28 pm, Wed Apr 12, 2017

Well, DK is a spec geared towards killing fighters, and earth and void are specs geared towards all clerics. That seems pretty legitimate. If you go Earth or Void, you miss out on Fire/Ice or Signs. Battle Clerics are a counter to non-Earth magicians and non-Void Arcs. That's a whole build designed to be a counter to two out of what? 8 builds? From what you're saying, I cannot distinguish how this isn't simply a matter of your build having a hard counter from clerics.

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Slick
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Slick » 9:40 pm, Wed Apr 12, 2017

Ice+Fire is/was/always will be far superior to Ice+Earth

I played Ice+Earth the entire .net server (last sorien server) and it is a bit more "fun" than Ice+Fire... but, thats it ;p

I forget the name of it now -- but kura's earth spell (short distance projectile) that got removed is hands down the best spell kura created. RIP

Kuraokami
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Kuraokami » 10:00 pm, Wed Apr 12, 2017

Slick wrote:Ice+Fire is/was/always will be far superior to Ice+Earth

I played Ice+Earth the entire .net server (last sorien server) and it is a bit more "fun" than Ice+Fire... but, thats it ;p

I forget the name of it now -- but kura's earth spell (short distance projectile) that got removed is hands down the best spell kura created. RIP
Earth still does increased damage on distance on boulder, and torn is still buffed, so both have the highest damage potential/mana to clerics.

Stone or Earth Assault.

Ryan
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Ryan » 12:38 am, Thu Apr 13, 2017

Kuraokami wrote:Earth still does increased damage on distance on boulder, and torn is still buffed, so both have the highest damage potential/mana to clerics.
More than Cball 1? Are Ball 1s nerfed on this version?

Law
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Re: Weaken cleric poll

Postby Law » 12:56 am, Thu Apr 13, 2017

Kuraokami wrote:Earth still does increased damage on distance on boulder, and torn is still buffed, so both have the highest damage potential/mana to clerics.
And this is where my math kicks in, but nobody ever seems to read it. So please, if you're reading this, read the whole thing before replying.

Mage highest Dmg/Power spell: Cold Ball 1, 42.5 dmg for 11 mana, or 3.86 damage per power.

Healing 7 heals max roll for 60, so after 40% damage reduction offered by P5, it undoes 100 points of damage dealt to the Cleric for 15 mana, or 6.67 heal per power.

Healing 7 with Prayer 5's multiplier heals 173% more efficiently than Mage's most efficient damage spell. Throw that in with misses, jukes, and airwall blocks, a good Cleric can easily outheal anything a Mage can dish out.

A 30 Cleric has 288 HP, so with 40% Damage Reduction, someone needs to do 480 points of damage to kill them. For comparison, 30 Mages have 206 HP and 30 Arcs/Ments have 247 HP. A 30 Cleric with P5 effectively has 233% more HP than a 30 Mage and 194% more HP than a 30 Arc/Ment.

So what about burst? Let's pretend the Mage is a god and the Cleric is a dumbo.

5x White Death = 400 dmg
5x Tornado = 400 dmg ? (is tornado 80 dmg a hit?)
3x Maelstrom = 279 dmg
7x Firestorm = 441 dmg
10x Shrap Ball 1 = 525 dmg

So I guess, if you can land 10 Shrap Ball 1s in a row, without the Cleric healing himself once and without him throwing up any Airwalls, you'll kill him. You're certainly never going to "surprise" a Cleric with a burst, though.

The reason *tankiness* needs to be lowered is because of the win condition of this game. It makes no sense to have this invincible juggernaut be able to walk into your shrine, beat your team, and win the game, when you're powerless to stop it.


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